Let's talk about forgiveness. It's Sunday, after all, and religions seem to be of the opinion that forgiveness is a really Big Deal. Especially the Christian religions.
How many of us remember chanting the Lord's Prayer? Hell, we had to say it at school when I was a child, right along with the Pledge of Allegiance. That's why my generation turned out to be so patriotic and god-fearing.
Hahaha.
The version of the Lord's Prayer that I learned used the word "trespass" instead of "sin" in the part about forgiving us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.
My grandfather had a sign on his river lot that said "No Trespassing" so I was somewhat confused about that for a long time. I can't remember when I got it all straightened out in my mind but eventually I did.
There's a lot packed into that line though. Asking god, Jesus, whoever, whatever, to forgive us our sins, to begin with. The concept of making little children believe that they're already sinning is pretty sick in my opinion. I was a very serious child and at an early age I was constantly worried about everything in the world and one of those things was that I was not as good as I should have been which is so ridiculous. I was the best little girl in the world. There's a whole lot more that goes into that whole situation but suffice to say, I was probably born feeling guilty and the Lord's Prayer reassured me that indeed I was. Of what, I do not know, but surely something. Lots of somethings, probably. And then there was the part about how we should forgive those who trespass against us.
What? I mean, a child really does not have the concept of anyone trespassing against them except for maybe a friend taking their favorite marble or something. Were we supposed to just forgive them for that and let them keep it? Meanwhile, the real sins against children are most often committed by the adults around them, the very people they are taught to respect and obey whether parents, teachers, or clergymen. Which is incredibly difficult as a child to understand, if not impossible.
Now I'm going to get real personal here. Even though I knew that what my stepfather was doing to me was not at all right, I had no words or knowledge or concept to frame that not-rightness as something evil. It took me years and years and years to finally admit to myself and then to others that what he had done had been abuse and that I was not the only child in the world who had been abused. I knew from my mid-teens, I think, that what he'd done had affected me in many ways, and none of them good and slowly I began not just to fear him but to hate him.
Years later, when I was in therapy with a very good therapist, we discussed the concept of forgiveness. Forgiveness is a big thing in our culture, our Christian culture and even a newer-age culture. You gotta forgive so that you can heal. I have no idea how many times I was told this and in the sexual abuse survivors group I went to, many of the women repeated this caveat and said that they had forgiven their abusers. Meanwhile, over the weeks and months and year or so I attended that group, I came to realize that their so-called forgiveness certainly had not healed them. And when I discussed this with my beloved therapist she said quite calmly that there were two things that survivors of abuse did not have to do.
1. Confront their abuser.
2. Forgive their abuser.
Eventually, I did confront my abuser but only via phone and that was a short call. Just long enough to tell him that I remembered what he had done, I knew what he had done to my brothers, and that what he had done was unforgivable.
And in my mind, I feel the same now.
"Don't forgive for the abuser, forgive for yourself!" is the advice so often given. And for the life of me, I cannot figure out how that works. First of all, some things are absolutely unforgivable. Should Hitler be forgiven? And if so, what the fuck does that mean? I get so confused. I've been told that forgiving someone doesn't mean that what they did wasn't wrong, just that you...what? Can let go of it?
How do you let go of someone who killed six million Jews and who knows how many other people? Why would you want to? You have to remember. You have to. It must be remembered.
And of course I'm not comparing what Hitler did to what a pedophile does. But. If you added up all of the numbers of victims of pedophiles whose lives were irrevocably damaged, it would be well into the millions. And just as the families of the Holocaust victims suffered because of Hitler, the families of the victims of pedophiles have suffered too. The thing that has brought me the most anguish in my journey as a child sexual abuse survivor is the knowledge that because of what was damaged in me as a child has affected how I have been a mother to my children and how I have been a wife to my husband. Because of what happened to me as a child, barely older than Maggie is now, I have coped in ways that were not healthy to me or my family. I feel no need to list those things. I am not proud of many of them. But I assure you- it's a long list.
And how can I forgive the man who generated this grave unfairness that has affected those I love the most?
What does the Bible say about the sins of the father?
"The Lord...visits the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children’s children, to the third and the fourth generation. (Exodus 34:6-7 = Deuteronomy 5:8-10)"
I beg to differ. I think it passes down way farther than that.
Look- I'm as apt as the next person to forgive something that someone we love does or says that may have hurt us in some way. Even deeply. We are humans. We make mistakes. And yes, I would like to be forgiven for doing those things too. But if we forgive these things, are forgiven of these things, there is an implied message that the sin will not be repeated. That an effort will be made to make reparations. But sometimes, that is not the case. Not the case at all.
And as I see it- there's no purpose in ginning up forgiveness for that which is quite literally unforgivable. I think of the abused woman whose husband tearfully begs forgiveness every time he's physically assaulted his wife. What good does it do to her to forgive him? Believing that forgiveness is somehow holy or simply the right thing to do puts her in a position in which she will be assaulted again.
I had a friend who did that. She finally, finally, made her way to leave her husband and yet, at the end of her life when she was suffering from dementia, he abused her in ways that I cannot bear to think about. I will never forgive him either. He's dead now, and although I do not believe in an afterlife, I would wish that he burns in hell.
As I see it, some people do not deserve forgiveness. Perhaps I am just a horrible, angry person.
So be it.
Tell me- what do you think about forgiveness? What does it mean to you? Is there something I am missing about it?
Well, Happy Sunday from the Church of the Batshit Crazy.
Love...Ms. Moon
greek translation of forgive is "to let go". Not to pardon but to let go so that it does not drag you into the abyss . It is a simple idea really. Let go of that fucker- toss him out, do not go with. Let go.
ReplyDeleteBut what does that mean? Can you consciously "let go?" How when you still have regular nightmares?
DeleteI just want the aliens π½π½ to show up and put a stop to all this nonsense!
ReplyDeleteπΈπ½
Wouldn't that be great?
DeleteBravo. I agree with every word you so eloquently wrote. I was a therapist for young adults for 40 years and saw first hand the severe damage sexual abuse does. I love a quote I recently heard “the best apology is a change of behavior.” Bless you for fighting the good fight all these years. Suz from LA
ReplyDeleteFrom what I understand, very few if any pedophiles change their behavior. They just move on to the next victim. Do they ever apologize?
Deletei'm not a joiner and forgiveness isn't my cup of tea either. revenge tho- yeah, i can get behind that 100% i think at this point me living my best life is the best revenge i can get. all love and respect to all of us who have stories we don't share bc of the pain in remembering. xxalainaxx
ReplyDeleteThere are so many ways to do it- to learn to live with what is there. I respect you so much for the way you live your life. You're a goddam miracle.
DeleteThis story is always hard to hear No, you don't forgive. The abusers must rot in hell, or at least in the cold, hard earth. My husband abused me and the children, especially the youngest. He died ten years after we divorced, at 45. A good end. But what he did lives on; all the therapy in the world and it does not go away, especially for the youngest child.
ReplyDeleteI agree. No forgiveness when children and families are hurt. I'm so sorry that man was in your life.
DeleteFuck no. NO forgiveness. Abuse makes broken humans and causes generational trauma. Your courage is as bright and huge as a star Mary. Love, Rebecca
ReplyDeleteOh sweet Rebecca. You are the shining star of courage. You.
DeleteI had to mull this over before replying. I don't forgive and I don't forget. I could teach a class in holding grudges. This wall has no chance of coming down. I wish I believed in karma, but I don't. People do horrible things and then die. The end. What goes around does not come around. I try my best not to hurt anyone, but if you hurt mr, you're gone.
ReplyDeleteCarol, I have to say I agree with you. I don't believe in karma either. It's as comforting a philosophy as there is but many, many people go to their graves having gotten away with all sorts of shit.
DeleteJust WOW, on this post. Not in a religious context (for me) some, or at times many things....*earn and deserve* forgiveness.. some things do NOT, never will, or should be forgiven or forgotten.......and there is a VERY clear boundary. All individual in nature and circumstance. Yikes....this has my head spinning....... powerful food for dinner tonight, Ms Moon
ReplyDeleteSusan M
It is a many layered onion, this whole subject, isn't it?
DeleteI think people don't understand the meaning of forgiveness. It's about not continuing to hate and want revenge. It's not about saying it was okay and putting yourself in harm's way again. It's about moving on, taking care of your own needs, not being concerned about being in good standing with the abuser. And it's about not giving in to the other people trying to force you back because they'd feel better then, common scenario in families. Abusers need you in their lives. You don't need them. Btdt.
ReplyDeletebeautifully said, Boud
DeleteSusan M
Perfect. You are exactly right, dear wise Liz.
DeleteI was raised Catholic, and thus guilt, shame and the concept of forgiveness were central. I was certainly expected to forgive--my sisters for whatever small or large fight we'd had, the kids at school who teased me ('just ignore a bully,' which also btw does not fucking work), then later on my ex husband who had a)a terrible childhood b)abusive parents c)a lack of education d) the list went on and on. But it occurs to me that in order to be forgiven in the church I first was supposed to confess and atone/take responsibility for my sins. Nowhere did anyone think my abusive ex was supposed to confess or atone. And yet, I was supposed to forgive. Nope. Abusers can eat a bag of richards, as a student recently said. I don't forgive my ex for his behavior towards me or my son.
ReplyDelete"Eat a big bag of Richards." Well that is my new favorite saying. Thank you!
DeleteYeah, the Catholic church is huge on that whole concept of forgiveness, isn't it? And of course you have to confess first so that you can be declared sin-free. What a bunch of shit. And no, I doubt anyone ever thought your ex should apologize or atone. Honestly, if he would do that, he probably would not be the kind of man you ever would have had to leave in the first place.
I think you're right that there are things that are unforgiveable but I also think that forgiveness is almost like lancing a boil, it lets out the pus and lets things heal. There'll always be a scar but it can't continue to fester. Does that make any sense?
ReplyDeleteI've forgiven my exhusband for all the shit he put me through, I don't want to carry it around anymore. But you were a child and that's different. I don't know how children survive sexual abuse intact.
Did your mother divorce your stepfather? Did she ever believe you? That would have an impact as well.
I'm so sorry this happened. If it had happened to one of my children, I probably would have cut the man's balls off, or beaten him with a baseball bat. Sending hugs and love to you.
But how do you do that? Lance that particular boil? Therapy helps for sure. And the survivor group helped me a great deal.
DeleteI've pretty much forgiven my ex too, but I can't say I haven't done that entirely. I know there were reasons he did what he did and I have empathy for that. Still, none of that takes away the pain of what happened. And none of that even begins to compare to what happened to me as a child.
My mother did divorce my stepfather but not nearly soon enough. She hung in there for my brothers. Or that was her philosophy. Meanwhile, they were telling me they were plotting ways to kill him and make it look like suicide. These were just little guys. He was evil.
My mother may have eventually believed me but mostly her reaction was to tell me over and over that she'd had no idea. That it was not her fault.
I doubt she ever even confronted the man after they divorced.
I don't know if you can even lance a boil that big. You don't have to forgive the man, some things are unforgiveable. I think I might have been with your brothers, plotting the man's murder.
DeleteYour mother sounds like she had a lot of guilt, as she should have.
I agree with you. Some things ARE unforgivable and should not be forgotten either. Whether it is sexual or just continued beatings, done to children by those who are supposed to love and care for them, it is 100% unforgivable. Hitler too should never be forgiven or forgotten and I now add Putin to that list and Trump too, having abused the trust of the people of America to such a great extent.
ReplyDeleteI honestly think forgiveness is a scam. Should slave owners have been forgiven? Should the generals who send kids off to war when they know the war is pointless? It goes on forever.
DeleteI couldn't forgive Putin or Trump either.
I have a dream that I wake up one day and all the evil bastards that have abused murdered tortured trafficked or ordered others to do the same have just vanished off the face of the planet. I think that would bring the population down by at least a quarter and improved life out of all recognition, well I can hope.
ReplyDeleteJessica- I share your dream.
DeleteYou are obviously not a horrible angry person. I’m with you when it comes to forgiveness. As far as I’m concerned needing to forgive so you can heal is unrealistic (and doesn’t work anyway). It also makes the child who was abused and left with their own guilt into the adult who is not kind enough to forgive. Finding ways to remove the power from abusers in your early life is important. Understanding the tragedy of their lives that made them who they were helps. Forgiving them for the awful things they did, not my responsibility.
ReplyDeleteI am quite sure that my stepfather was abused in probably various ways. I doubt his intent was to hurt me or any of the other children he abused. The fact remains though, that he did. I agree with you so wholeheartedly that needing to forgive is unrealistic and doesn't really do a damn thing. I keep coming back to the question- what does forgiveness mean if it's not something that you can absolutely find it in your heart to do?
DeleteEmpty words.
You are not a horrible angry person. My son recently said to me, "Just because they're selling the ticket, doesn't mean you have to buy it." You don't have to buy their forgiveness ticket, and you don't have to feel any particular way about it except that you're not buying it. We put a whole lotta' "shoulds" on feelings and other people's expectations. The feelings--no matter how raw or deep--are feelings and don't need any "shoulds" to try to manipulate them.
ReplyDeleteI do like what your son said, Susan. And you are so right about our feelings. Nobody has the right to tell us we should or should not feel this way or that way. Our feelings are our own, woven out of who we are and our experiences in this world. No one else's.
DeleteThank you for your comment.
I think forgiveness means letting the sin stay with the sinner, where it belongs. Does that mean I forget or somehow condone or overlook what "the sinner" did? Not one bit. Does that mean I would call him/her on the phone or send a birthday card? Nope. Forgiveness is a way for the abused to stop being a victim - to stop being connected to or continually hurt by the abuser. Still, some sins are harder to forgive, and with all my heart I believe that some sins are unforgivable. Sexually abusing children is one of those. The abuser should go to jail.
ReplyDeleteWell, my abuser is dead so that's that for him. As far as I know he never got into any trouble at all for what he did, much less sent to jail.
DeleteI like what you said about letting the sin stay with the sinner. With sexual abuse, shame is the first thing after admitting that it happened, that the survivor has to deal with. It has to be taken off our own shoulders and placed squarely where it belongs. I did nothing wrong. I was just a child. And that, at least, I am very strong about knowing.
Well, I am no expert by any means, but I think forgiveness, like many things, is more of a spectrum than an absolute. It's a good goal to forgive as completely as we are able. But that doesn't mean we have to forgive completely, nor that that is always possible. I also don't think forgiveness means absolution. In your case, perhaps acknowledging the abuse to your stepfather was enough -- telling him you're aware and you remember, so that he is forced to confront, even to a limited degree, his actions and their consequences, and you can move forward knowing that you had that reckoning.
ReplyDeleteIt was definitely one step in moving forward. One.
DeleteUnfortunately, when dealing with such a deep-seated and deeply affecting situation, there is no one thing that makes it entirely better. But yes. You are so right. I did have that reckoning.
I don't know the answer, Mary. I'm sending you hugs, tho. xx
ReplyDeleteThank you, Ellen. I appreciate that.
DeleteI’m also a survivor and as it were, a Christian. I’ve read your blog for years - you probably wouldn’t like me very much but your writing here draws me. Forgiveness, in my circumstances, meant peace. I called him before he died and I said that I won’t carry it around any more. That something maybe terrible happened to him to make him so twisted that he would do that to me. But that I wouldn’t hold it. That it was his alone to carry. Forgiveness was letting go of anger that was fucking up everything good that I had in my life. It was not a magical release but it helped to consistently remind myself that I put it down and left it with him.
ReplyDeleteOh, I'm sorry that you think I wouldn't like you because you're religious. I honestly believe we either have the gene to be religious or we don't. I don't. You do.
DeleteI respect you action in calling the man who hurt you and told him that you were giving the guilt to him. I think that's what you are saying, in a way.
I really do not think I am the kind of person who can give up anger about something so very deep within me that it's absolutely a part of who I am. I almost cherish that anger in a way- it has given me the strength to acknowledge that none of it was mine to bear in the first place.
Thank you for taking the time to tell me your truth, your experience. I appreciate that.
forgive and forget. nope. for some things yes. for others, not so much. some things are so heinous that they should never be forgiven. I also was supposed to recite the Lord's Prayer along with the pledge in school and I can't say how glad I am they stopped that. I would recite the pledge but not the Lord's Prayer. and yeah, trespass was in that version. thinking about forgiveness. I think Linda Sue has the right of it, to let go. but no, not forget. you forget and you end up in the same situation all over again. I'm thinking of some people who hurt me deeply over some perceived offense of mine, people who were far from perfect themselves, who shut me completely out of their lives out of the blue. about a decade later the woman reached out to me as if nothing had happened and when I brought up how our friendship had ended and I wasn't interested in picking it up again she got all huffy. have I forgiven these people? no, I don't think so. I did finally let go of the hurt and moved on with the help of other friends but I have never forgotten and maybe it makes me a bad person but having the opportunity to rebuff at least one of them felt good. minor offenses can be forgiven and if not forgotten at least put aside I think as none of us is perfect. major shit? nope. but for our own peace of mind we need to let go of the burden of that pain. easy for me to say I guess though it wasn't easy when I was going through it but Mary, what you endured, I can't even imagine. thinking again about the Lord's Prayer, forgive us as we forgive implying we are better than god, at least in my mind. imploring god to do for us what we are doing for others. there's just something wrong with that. shouldn't it be the reverse, since god forgives us, we should also forgive others.
ReplyDeleteif you believe in that god, I mean, which I don't.
DeleteYou're so right- what a fucked-up prayer that is. Why should we have remind god that we can forgive so please, can't he too? What a crock.
DeleteI'm really glad that you were able to let go of the pain that was caused by those people. That is remarkable and says a great deal about you, Ellen. But I've long known that you are a remarkable woman.
I have been so lucky not to know the types of abuse you are all writing about. Not so lucky are a few sisters in law, so I got to know the effects through them. One never admitted it but all the signs were there.
ReplyDeleteYeah, never could get my head around forgiveness of child abuse either.
I was once advised, in response to expressing some powerful unpleasant feelings about a situation, that I needed to "get over" myself. Easier said than done, I said. HOW do I do that? And being advised to forgive someone for abuse reminds me of that. In my case, the advisor was able to give me practical advice that I followed and that made a huge difference. But there was no abuse involved, especially childhood sexual abuse, and that is a whole different story.
ReplyDeleteBut Mary, you are SO NOT batshit-crazy. You seem like one of the sanest people around.
-Kate
I have to say, I agree with you a million percent here. This idea of forgiving these awful things so that we can somehow be bettered has always baffled me. I sure do hate your fkng stepfather. And sure do love you. SJ
ReplyDelete